P0141 still being set
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From: davejohansen on 3 Sep 2007 20:37 I posted a little while ago about my 97 Geo Prizm. You can see the posts here: http://groups.google.com/group/alt.autos.toyota/browse_thread/thread/cd4d8f4ec0c588e2/67b8653a91ac5a22?lnk=gst&q=P0141&rnum=2#67b8653a91ac5a22 I finally found out that there was a problem with the wiring and fixed it. I verified that there is now a connection from the O2 Sensor to terminal 19 on the 26-pin PCM (or ECU or whatever you want to call it) connector, but I drove the car around the block and the code got set again. I re-followed the steps that I used to find the bad wiring and everything checked out and it says that it's a problem with the PCM. I looked through the TSB that are listed here: http://www.tsb.com/TSB/21/972101fn.html And I noticed that TSB 02-06-04-039 states a problem with Emissions and ODB II. Could that be related to my problem? Or does anyone have any ideas of what I should try next? If it is a bad PCM, should I just take it to a dealer to get it fixed? And is something like that covered under warranty (I'm at around 95K miles and it's 10 years old)? Thanks, Dave
From: Ray O on 3 Sep 2007 21:11 <davejohansen(a)gmail.com> wrote in message news:1188866256.726022.138320(a)22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com... >I posted a little while ago about my 97 Geo Prizm. You can see the > posts here: > http://groups.google.com/group/alt.autos.toyota/browse_thread/thread/cd4d8f4ec0c588e2/67b8653a91ac5a22?lnk=gst&q=P0141&rnum=2#67b8653a91ac5a22 After going back and looking at all of the posts, some posters provided incorrect and/or confusing information, so let's start over again. > I finally found out that there was a problem with the wiring and fixed > it. I verified that there is now a connection from the O2 Sensor to > terminal 19 on the 26-pin PCM (or ECU or whatever you want to call it) > connector, but I drove the car around the block and the code got set > again. > > I re-followed the steps that I used to find the bad wiring and > everything checked out and it says that it's a problem with the PCM. How did you check the wiring? Did you do a continuity check between the connector on the O2 sensor ande corresponding pin on the harness side of the PCM connector or did you use another method? I > looked through the TSB that are listed here: > http://www.tsb.com/TSB/21/972101fn.html > And I noticed that TSB 02-06-04-039 states a problem with Emissions > and ODB II. Could that be related to my problem? I'm not sure how GM comes up with titles to TSB's, but I doubt if the TSB you referenced above is related to your problem. TSB's related to a specific diagnostic trouble code ("DTC") generally list the DTC, and that seems to be the case in the list of TSB's for your car. In other words, I would imagine that the title would reference DTC P0141 in the title. > Or does anyone have any ideas of what I should try next? I see that you had a Bosch sensor installed and you changed it to an "OEM" one. Exactly what brand of O2 sensor is in the car now and where did you get it? Did you have to do any splicing for any of the sensor swaps? Also, what is the physical location of the sensor you have been checking? Are you checking the sensor on the exhaust manifold or the one between the catalytic converter and the tailpipe? > If it is a bad PCM, should I just take it to a dealer to get it fixed? > And is something like that covered under warranty (I'm at around 95K > miles and it's 10 years old)? > > Thanks, > Dave > Bad PCM's are very rare and should be the last thing that gets changed. Unfortunately, you are probably beyond any emissions warranty so it would be a customer pay situation. I wouldn't have a problem with one from a junk yard since the odds are that it will still be OK. -- Ray O (correct punctuation to reply)
From: davejohansen on 4 Sep 2007 15:28 On Sep 3, 6:11 pm, "Ray O" <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote: > <davejohan...(a)gmail.com> wrote in message > > news:1188866256.726022.138320(a)22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com... > > >I posted a little while ago about my 97 Geo Prizm. You can see the > > posts here: > >http://groups.google.com/group/alt.autos.toyota/browse_thread/thread/... > > After going back and looking at all of the posts, some posters provided > incorrect and/or confusing information, so let's start over again. > > > I finally found out that there was a problem with the wiring and fixed > > it. I verified that there is now a connection from the O2 Sensor to > > terminal 19 on the 26-pin PCM (or ECU or whatever you want to call it) > > connector, but I drove the car around the block and the code got set > > again. > > > I re-followed the steps that I used to find the bad wiring and > > everything checked out and it says that it's a problem with the PCM. > > How did you check the wiring? Did you do a continuity check between the > connector on the O2 sensor ande corresponding pin on the harness side of the > PCM connector or did you use another method? > > I > > > looked through the TSB that are listed here: > >http://www.tsb.com/TSB/21/972101fn.html > > And I noticed that TSB 02-06-04-039 states a problem with Emissions > > and ODB II. Could that be related to my problem? > > I'm not sure how GM comes up with titles to TSB's, but I doubt if the TSB > you referenced above is related to your problem. TSB's related to a > specific diagnostic trouble code ("DTC") generally list the DTC, and that > seems to be the case in the list of TSB's for your car. In other words, I > would imagine that the title would reference DTCP0141in the title. > > > Or does anyone have any ideas of what I should try next? > > I see that you had a Bosch sensor installed and you changed it to an "OEM" > one. Exactly what brand of O2 sensor is in the car now and where did you > get it? Did you have to do any splicing for any of the sensor swaps? > > Also, what is the physical location of the sensor you have been checking? > Are you checking the sensor on the exhaust manifold or the one between the > catalytic converter and the tailpipe? > > > If it is a bad PCM, should I just take it to a dealer to get it fixed? > > And is something like that covered under warranty (I'm at around 95K > > miles and it's 10 years old)? > > > Thanks, > > Dave > > Bad PCM's are very rare and should be the last thing that gets changed. > Unfortunately, you are probably beyond any emissions warranty so it would be > a customer pay situation. I wouldn't have a problem with one from a junk > yard since the odds are that it will still be OK. > > -- > > Ray O > (correct punctuation to reply) I spoke with the teacher in the auto shop that my wife works at and it turns out that that TSB is only for Prizm's manufactured in Canada but that need to pass US emissions, so it doesn't apply. Also, here's the full story since it's probably hard to gather it all from the randomly spread out posts and I left out some info in my last post: I bought the car about a year ago and very shortly after I bought it the code P0141 came on (described as "Post-convertor O2 Sensor heater or circuit fault" in the manual). I bought a Universal Bosch O2 Sensor and installed it. The code came back on after about 30-40 minutes of driving it (which seemed odd since the manual said that it should come on within 1-2 minutes). The responses on here stated that it was probably a problem with the splicing I did or something wrong with the wiring between the sensor the PCM. I put it off until about a month or two ago when I traded in the Universal Bosch O2 Sensor for a direct fit one. Once again, the code came back on after about 30-40 minutes of driving it. I then did the tests in the Haynes manual that I have and it said that the O2 Sensor was fine, but I noticed that the output was going through a sinusoidal type of pattern instead of staying level like the manual said it should. After some investigation and phone calls it seemed that the catalytic converter was bad, so on Friday I finally got that replaced. But like usually after about 30-40 minutes of driving the code came on again. So I called up the teacher of the auto shop at my wife's work. He looked up the service for a P0141 on a 97 Geo Prizm and it was almost identical to the steps in the manual I had, but had an extra step regarding the expected voltage of the output (should be 10 V). I did this test and noticed that the output voltage wasn't even close to this. I then noticed that up near the console this output wire had been spliced, so I opened up the console to investigate. I then noticed that the wire had been split with one of the wires going to the PCM and one being grounded to the metal of the console. I believe that the wiring had a problem and they had tried to re-run the wire themselves and had grounded it for some odd reason (the wire was blue and black so maybe they thought the black meant that it was supposed to be grounded or something). But I removed this wiring and re-ran the wire like they should have. I tested the connection between terminal 19 on the PCM and the output of the O2 Sensor and it passed, so I assumed it would work and put everything back (dumb, I know). But then the code came on almost instantly after I turned the car on (more like what I expected). When I spoke with the teacher in the auto shop, he said that being grounded like that might have messed up the O2 Sensor and that I should redo the diagnostic checks to make sure that it was still OK, because it was very unlikely that the PCM was bad (just like Ray O said), so I'll redo that check and hopefully it will just be something simple like getting a replacement O2 sensor and swapping it out. And just for completeness, here's the test that I did: 1) Disconnect the O2 Sensor and ensure that there's 12 V at the Black/ Red wire coming from the car with the ignition on. 2) Reconnect the O2 Sensor and ensure that there's 10 V at the Blue/ Black wire coming from the O2 sensor with the ignition on 3) Disconnect the O2 Sensor and ensure that there's 11.7-14.3 Ohms between those same terminals on the O2 Sensor at 68 degrees F. 4) Ensure that the output of the O2 Sensor is holding steady between 100 and 900 mV after reaching standard operating conditoin. Thanks for all the help and I'll let you know what I find out. Dave
From: Jeff Strickland on 4 Sep 2007 19:13 "Ray O" <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote in message news:Q9mdneK5np1KLUHbnZ2dnUVZ_vihnZ2d(a)comcast.com... > > <davejohansen(a)gmail.com> wrote in message > news:1188866256.726022.138320(a)22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com... >>I posted a little while ago about my 97 Geo Prizm. You can see the >> posts here: >> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.autos.toyota/browse_thread/thread/cd4d8f4ec0c588e2/67b8653a91ac5a22?lnk=gst&q=P0141&rnum=2#67b8653a91ac5a22 > > After going back and looking at all of the posts, some posters provided > incorrect and/or confusing information, so let's start over again. > > >> I finally found out that there was a problem with the wiring and fixed >> it. I verified that there is now a connection from the O2 Sensor to >> terminal 19 on the 26-pin PCM (or ECU or whatever you want to call it) >> connector, but I drove the car around the block and the code got set >> again. >> >> I re-followed the steps that I used to find the bad wiring and >> everything checked out and it says that it's a problem with the PCM. > > How did you check the wiring? Did you do a continuity check between the > connector on the O2 sensor ande corresponding pin on the harness side of > the PCM connector or did you use another method? > > > I >> looked through the TSB that are listed here: >> http://www.tsb.com/TSB/21/972101fn.html >> And I noticed that TSB 02-06-04-039 states a problem with Emissions >> and ODB II. Could that be related to my problem? > > I'm not sure how GM comes up with titles to TSB's, but I doubt if the TSB > you referenced above is related to your problem. TSB's related to a > specific diagnostic trouble code ("DTC") generally list the DTC, and that > seems to be the case in the list of TSB's for your car. In other words, I > would imagine that the title would reference DTC P0141 in the title. > >> Or does anyone have any ideas of what I should try next? > > I see that you had a Bosch sensor installed and you changed it to an "OEM" > one. Exactly what brand of O2 sensor is in the car now and where did you > get it? Did you have to do any splicing for any of the sensor swaps? > > Also, what is the physical location of the sensor you have been checking? > Are you checking the sensor on the exhaust manifold or the one between the > catalytic converter and the tailpipe? > >> If it is a bad PCM, should I just take it to a dealer to get it fixed? >> And is something like that covered under warranty (I'm at around 95K >> miles and it's 10 years old)? >> >> Thanks, >> Dave >> > > Bad PCM's are very rare and should be the last thing that gets changed. > Unfortunately, you are probably beyond any emissions warranty so it would > be a customer pay situation. I wouldn't have a problem with one from a > junk yard since the odds are that it will still be OK. > I did not read all of the misleading and confusing posts on this subject, but I agree with what Ray has said here, straight down the line. P0141 O2 Sensor Heater Circuit Malfunction (Bank 1 Sensor 2) This is a failure of the heater that resides inside the O2 Sensor that is after the CAT.
From: davejohansen on 4 Sep 2007 19:58
On Sep 4, 4:13 pm, "Jeff Strickland" <cr...(a)verizon.net> wrote: > "Ray O" <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote in message > > news:Q9mdneK5np1KLUHbnZ2dnUVZ_vihnZ2d(a)comcast.com... > > > > > > > <davejohan...(a)gmail.com> wrote in message > >news:1188866256.726022.138320(a)22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com... > >>I posted a little while ago about my 97 Geo Prizm. You can see the > >> posts here: > >>http://groups.google.com/group/alt.autos.toyota/browse_thread/thread/... > > > After going back and looking at all of the posts, some posters provided > > incorrect and/or confusing information, so let's start over again. > > >> I finally found out that there was a problem with the wiring and fixed > >> it. I verified that there is now a connection from the O2 Sensor to > >> terminal 19 on the 26-pin PCM (or ECU or whatever you want to call it) > >> connector, but I drove the car around the block and the code got set > >> again. > > >> I re-followed the steps that I used to find the bad wiring and > >> everything checked out and it says that it's a problem with the PCM. > > > How did you check the wiring? Did you do a continuity check between the > > connector on the O2 sensor ande corresponding pin on the harness side of > > the PCM connector or did you use another method? > > > I > >> looked through the TSB that are listed here: > >>http://www.tsb.com/TSB/21/972101fn.html > >> And I noticed that TSB 02-06-04-039 states a problem with Emissions > >> and ODB II. Could that be related to my problem? > > > I'm not sure how GM comes up with titles to TSB's, but I doubt if the TSB > > you referenced above is related to your problem. TSB's related to a > > specific diagnostic trouble code ("DTC") generally list the DTC, and that > > seems to be the case in the list of TSB's for your car. In other words, I > > would imagine that the title would reference DTC P0141 in the title. > > >> Or does anyone have any ideas of what I should try next? > > > I see that you had a Bosch sensor installed and you changed it to an "OEM" > > one. Exactly what brand of O2 sensor is in the car now and where did you > > get it? Did you have to do any splicing for any of the sensor swaps? > > > Also, what is the physical location of the sensor you have been checking? > > Are you checking the sensor on the exhaust manifold or the one between the > > catalytic converter and the tailpipe? > > >> If it is a bad PCM, should I just take it to a dealer to get it fixed? > >> And is something like that covered under warranty (I'm at around 95K > >> miles and it's 10 years old)? > > >> Thanks, > >> Dave > > > Bad PCM's are very rare and should be the last thing that gets changed. > > Unfortunately, you are probably beyond any emissions warranty so it would > > be a customer pay situation. I wouldn't have a problem with one from a > > junk yard since the odds are that it will still be OK. > > I did not read all of the misleading and confusing posts on this subject, > but I agree with what Ray has said here, straight down the line. > > P0141 O2 Sensor Heater Circuit Malfunction (Bank 1 Sensor 2) > > This is a failure of the heater that resides inside the O2 Sensor that is > after the CAT. The O2 Sensor that I currently have is a Bosch and here's the link to it on AutoZone's website: http://www.autozone.com/selectedZip,85743/initialAction,partProductDetail/initialpartType,00117/initialR,APP243760/initialvehicleId,2341202/shopping/selectZip.htm I also noticed that Autozone has some other brands available: Beck Arnley - http://www.autozone.com/R,APP242730/vehicleId,2341202/initialAction,partProductDetail/store,/partType,00117/shopping/partProductDetail.htm Denso - http://www.autozone.com/R,APP249492/vehicleId,2341202/initialAction,partProductDetail/store,/partType,00117/shopping/partProductDetail.htm Should I try getting one from a different brand? Or is the Bosch one just fine? Thanks again for all the help, Dave |