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From: Daniel W. Rouse Jr. on 28 Oct 2007 04:37 "Mark A" <nobody(a)nowhere.com> wrote in message news:xM3Ti.3819$W9.896(a)bignews6.bellsouth.net... > "Built_Well" <Built_Well_Toyota(a)hotmail.com> wrote in message > news:1193067869.342351.153810(a)i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com... > > > > I've finished trying to educate Mark A. His little mind > > is into rhetorical games, not honest debate. > > > > He's simply repeating the same thing post-after-post. > > Apparently I have to repeat it because you don't understand English. If you > want to call that rhetoric, that is your problem. > > I explained the difference quite clearly. Toyota wants to err on the side of > safety, and the other book wants to err on the side of making sure the wheel > is flat against the hub before the lug nuts are tightened. > > So a good compromise is to tighten the lug nuts to between 20 and 40 ft-lbs. with the wheel up in the air, then lower the wheel down to the ground and finish incrementally torquing to the manufactuerer suggested value. (For automatic transmission vehicles, Park should be sufficient to lock the front wheels from turning, parking brake should be sufficient to lock the rear wheels from turning.)
From: Bruce L. Bergman on 28 Oct 2007 13:19 On Sun, 28 Oct 2007 01:37:44 -0700, "Daniel W. Rouse Jr." <dwrousejr(a)nethere.comNOSPAM> wrote: >"Mark A" <nobody(a)nowhere.com> wrote in message >news:xM3Ti.3819$W9.896(a)bignews6.bellsouth.net... >> "Built_Well" <Built_Well_Toyota(a)hotmail.com> wrote in message >> news:1193067869.342351.153810(a)i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com... >> > >> > I've finished trying to educate Mark A. His little mind >> > is into rhetorical games, not honest debate. >> > >> > He's simply repeating the same thing post-after-post. >> >> Apparently I have to repeat it because you don't understand English. If >> you want to call that rhetoric, that is your problem. >> >> I explained the difference quite clearly. Toyota wants to err on the side >> of safety, and the other book wants to err on the side of making sure the >> wheel is flat against the hub before the lug nuts are tightened. > >So a good compromise is to tighten the lug nuts to between 20 and 40 ft-lbs. >with the wheel up in the air, then lower the wheel down to the ground and >finish incrementally torquing to the manufactuerer suggested value. > >(For automatic transmission vehicles, Park should be sufficient to lock the >front wheels from turning, parking brake should be sufficient to lock the >rear wheels from turning.) You've got it! By George, He's Got It!! ;-) The trick is to not put a lot of sideways force on the car while it's balanced up on a jack or jackstands - even chock blocks can't prevent the car from moving if you put enough OOMPH into it. A rough 20+ Ft-Lbs (no torque wrench needed, just a hand lug wrench or the Impact Wrench set to "Low" or "1" position) is enough to get the wheels properly positioned & centered on the hubs, and make it safe to drop the car to the ground. I wouldn't even try to torque the wheels to final readings with the car up on a shop post lift if the car isn't well balanced. Sometimes the lift design leaves the car heavy on one set of lift points and light on the other, and cars fall off shop lifts all the time if the mechanic doesn't respect that fact. (They pull the engine out and the car makes a neat backflip and falls. Hey, it was balanced when they drove it on...) Once your car is on the ground QED it can't fall off the jacks anymore. ;-) Torque to your heart's content. --<< Bruce >>--
From: Mike Romain on 28 Oct 2007 14:13 Bruce L. Bergman wrote: > Once your car is on the ground QED it can't fall off the jacks > anymore. ;-) Torque to your heart's content. > > --<< Bruce >>-- > The OP unfortunately doesn't believe that vehicles 'do' fall off the jacks 'really' easily and insists on using 4 jackstands to rotate his wheels because a jackstand maker told him so. To make matters worse he has to do this on 'unknown' ground 'every' time because he lives where he can't work on it so has to go looking for a dirt or dead end road to use. The OP is in for a shock I think.... At least I 'know' how unstable my driveway's pavement is so act accordingly. Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's - Gone to the rust pile...
From: Built_Well on 31 Oct 2007 20:48 Well, today was a first for me. I hoisted my car using a floor jack! Great experience! I had never done that before. Sure, I've changed flat tires before using the scissors jack in the trunk, but that only involved raising one wheel. Today, I used a proper floor jack to raise the entire front end of the Camry. Wow, it's scary the first time you consider going underneath the car using a mechanics creeper and only jack stands to keep the vehicle supported. As I peered under the car from the side, I stronly considered not rolling in there with the creeper. I was very scared. If those 2 jack stands supporting the front end fail, you're history! Very sobering thought. I eyed those 2 stands carefully, and checked them again and again for signs of strain while I was underneath the car. I did not feel at all comfortable under there, and now understand why so many folks just go to the dealer to get oil changes. When I saw a huge 18-wheeler coming in my car's direction, I high-tailed it out from under the car, just in case. I was worried that possible vibrations from the truck might affect the stands and topple everything over. Didn't happen, but when the next 18-wheeler rolled by, I did the same thing. Anyway, I bought the 3.5-ton Michelin floor jack at Sam's Club for $65. It lifts from 5.5 inches to 22 inches, and has a universal joint. It /very smoothly/ lowers your car like it was laying down a baby. Nice floor jack. I did this in the parking lot of Sam's Club, back behind their tire installation bays. When I was almost done, one of the techs happened to pass by and asked what I was doing. I told him I had just bought the Michelin jack from his store, and was testing it to see if I liked it. He said he has owned the identical floor jack for 4 years, and likes it a lot. I'm just glad he didn't say, "Get the hell out of our lot; raising your car here is a legal liability for us." ;-) I was in clear view of the store's roof cameras at all times, but nobody told me to scram. I'm guessing I wasn't asked to leave because I spent the first 20 minutes in their lot just assembling the jack and reading the instructions. They may not have realized I was eventually going to lift the Camry. I'm sure the tech would have told me to scram if I hadn't mentioned I bought the contraption at his store ;-) Anyway, the parking lot is asphalt, but the jack stands did not dig into the asphalt like I was worried about. Maybe the extra wide feet of the Duralast stands helped. One thing that I was not expecting was the 2 short, quiet creaking noises I heard when the car first began to rise. I guess the creaking sounds came from the car's frame/chassis? I used the lifting point recommended by the Camry's manual (the jacking point located in the center front-end of the car), but I wonder if lifting from this single point puts a strain on the frame that the frame otherwise would never experience if you simply let your mechanic's garage lift the car with an automotive lift that attaches to the 4 double notches along the side rails? That's 4 lifting points being used simultaneously instead of just one. That reminds me. I'm happy to report that placing the two jack stands underneath the car's 2 front-end double notches which are found along the side rails did not have any bad affect on the notches. Their seams didn't bend or anything. Well, I can't wait to do my first-ever oil change in March! However, I know I'll still be really apprehensive about going underneath the vehicle.
From: Scott in Florida on 31 Oct 2007 20:50
On Wed, 31 Oct 2007 19:48:42 -0500, Built_Well <built_well_toyota(a)hotmail.com> wrote: > >Well, today was a first for me. I hoisted my car using >a floor jack! Great experience! I had never done that >before. Sure, I've changed flat tires before using the >scissors jack in the trunk, but that only involved raising >one wheel. Today, I used a proper floor jack to raise >the entire front end of the Camry. > >Wow, it's scary the first time you consider going >underneath the car using a mechanics creeper and >only jack stands to keep the vehicle supported. As I peered >under the car from the side, I stronly considered >not rolling in there with the creeper. I was very >scared. If those 2 jack stands supporting the >front end fail, you're history! Very sobering thought. >I eyed those 2 stands carefully, and checked them again >and again for signs of strain while I was underneath the car. >I did not feel at all comfortable under there, and now >understand why so many folks just go to the dealer to get >oil changes. > >When I saw a huge 18-wheeler coming in my car's direction, >I high-tailed it out from under the car, just in case. I was >worried that possible vibrations from the truck might >affect the stands and topple everything over. Didn't happen, >but when the next 18-wheeler rolled by, I did the same thing. > >Anyway, I bought the 3.5-ton Michelin floor jack at Sam's Club >for $65. It lifts from 5.5 inches to 22 inches, and has >a universal joint. It /very smoothly/ lowers your car >like it was laying down a baby. Nice floor jack. > >I did this in the parking lot of Sam's Club, back behind their >tire installation bays. When I was almost done, one of >the techs happened to pass by and asked what I was doing. >I told him I had just bought the Michelin jack from his >store, and was testing it to see if I liked it. He said >he has owned the identical floor jack for 4 years, and likes >it a lot. I'm just glad he didn't say, "Get the hell out >of our lot; raising your car here is a legal liability >for us." ;-) I was in clear view of the store's roof cameras >at all times, but nobody told me to scram. > >I'm guessing I wasn't asked to leave because I spent the >first 20 minutes in their lot just assembling the jack and >reading the instructions. They may not have realized I was >eventually going to lift the Camry. I'm sure the tech would have >told me to scram if I hadn't mentioned I bought the contraption >at his store ;-) > >Anyway, the parking lot is asphalt, but the jack stands >did not dig into the asphalt like I was worried about. Maybe >the extra wide feet of the Duralast stands helped. > >One thing that I was not expecting was the 2 short, quiet >creaking noises I heard when the car first began to >rise. I guess the creaking sounds came from the car's >frame/chassis? I used the lifting point recommended >by the Camry's manual (the jacking point located in the center >front-end of the car), but I wonder if lifting from this >single point puts a strain on the frame that the frame otherwise >would never experience if you simply >let your mechanic's garage lift the car with an >automotive lift that attaches to the 4 double notches along >the side rails? That's 4 lifting points being used simultaneously >instead of just one. > >That reminds me. I'm happy to report that placing the >two jack stands underneath the car's 2 front-end double notches >which are found along the side rails did not have any bad affect on >the notches. Their seams didn't bend or anything. > >Well, I can't wait to do my first-ever oil change in March! >However, I know I'll still be really apprehensive about going >underneath the vehicle. LOL.... You are no longer a virgin. I finally got a decent jack and it makes a world of difference compared to using the car's jack. -- Scott in Florida |