From: Mark A on
"Built_Well" <built_well_toyota(a)hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:471c0352$0$90430
> Sure, we can differ on this point. I'm just saying that both the
> Camry manual and "Auto Upkeep" instruct to fully tighten the lug nuts
> after the car is completely lowered (in the case of the Camry manual)
> or the tires are lowered to the point of just barely touching the
> ground (in the case of "Auto Upkeep").
>
> Apparently the "Auto Upkeep" author thinks there's some advantage
> to fully tightening the wheels while the car is not completely lowered.
>
> I'm not sure what Auto Upkeep's logic is, but both the Camry manual
> and "Auto Upkeep" instruct not to fully tighten the wheels while
> the car is way up in the air.

The logic is obvious. If the nuts are too loose and the car is fully
lowered, then the weight of the car will shift the load among the bolts in
an uneven fashion, and even if you torque the nuts when the car is on the
ground, they will not be equally tight against the wheel.

But if one takes reasonable care to gently (but firmly) tighten the nuts
while the car is in the air, then this should not be a problem. Then do the
final tightening when the car is fully lowered, or when the wheels are
barely touching if you are really paranoid (I am sure that does not apply to
anyone in this newsgroup).


From: Built_Well on

Mark A. wrote:

> [some things]
========

Ray_O already mentioned (long before you, Mark) that the wheels
need to be firmly seated onto the bolts/studs with the nuts so that
there is no play in the wheel before lowering. You're simply repeating
what he already said many posts ago.

The firm seating can be either finger-tight as mentioned in the
Camry manual or snugged a bit more with a turn or two of the
lug wrench before lowering the car (as "Auto Upkeep" prefers).

Then the full torquing can be accomplished with the car completely
lowered onto the ground (Camry manual) or with the car's tires
just barely touching the ground ("Auto Upkeep").

Mark, if you had read more carefully, you would have understood that
the logic we're wondering about is /not/ the initial seating of the
wheels before lowering. That is a simple given.

The logic we're wondering about is Auto Upkeep's recommendation of
fully tightening the wheels with the car's tires just barely touching
the ground (*without the car actually being fully lowered
yet*) /versus/ the Camry manual's recommendation of completely lowering
the car before fully tightening the lug nuts.

I guess it takes careful reading to make this
fine distinction. Mark, you might want to try harder next time.

I recommend you re-read the steps I posted from the "Auto Upkeep" book.
From: Mark A on
"Built_Well" <built_well_toyota(a)hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:471c233f$0$90456
> Ray_O already mentioned (long before you, Mark) that the wheels
> need to be firmly seated onto the bolts/studs with the nuts so that
> there is no play in the wheel before lowering. You're simply repeating
> what he already said many posts ago.
>
> The firm seating can be either finger-tight as mentioned in the
> Camry manual or snugged a bit more with a turn or two of the
> lug wrench before lowering the car (as "Auto Upkeep" prefers).
>
> Then the full torquing can be accomplished with the car completely
> lowered onto the ground (Camry manual) or with the car's tires
> just barely touching the ground ("Auto Upkeep").
>
> Mark, if you had read more carefully, you would have understood that
> the logic we're wondering about is /not/ the initial seating of the
> wheels before lowering. That is a simple given.
>
> The logic we're wondering about is Auto Upkeep's recommendation of
> fully tightening the wheels with the car's tires just barely touching
> the ground (*without the car actually being fully lowered
> yet*) /versus/ the Camry manual's recommendation of completely lowering
> the car before fully tightening the lug nuts.
>
> I guess it takes careful reading to make this
> fine distinction. Mark, you might want to try harder next time.
>
> I recommend you re-read the steps I posted from the "Auto Upkeep" book.

Please do not snip my post, because you missed what I said. I explained the
difference.

If you lower the car completely without the wheels being sufficiently tight
against the hub, you may not be able to get the proper torque on them. That
is because a slightly loose wheel when lowered to ground will be supporting
the full weight of the car without being tight and will put an uneven force
on the lugnut.

Now, if the wheel is secured flush against hub, even if not completely
tightened, then this problem will probably not occur, but the Auto Upkeep
recommendation is based on the assumption to be sure the wheel is flush
against the hub, then tighten it before it is supporting the full weight of
the car, but after it is low enough to make sure no problems will occur if
it falls off the jack (since it is already close to the ground).


From: Built_Well on

I've finished trying to educate Mark A. His little mind
is into rhetorical games, not honest debate.

He's simply repeating the same thing post-after-post.

From: Mark A on
"Built_Well" <Built_Well_Toyota(a)hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1193067869.342351.153810(a)i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>
> I've finished trying to educate Mark A. His little mind
> is into rhetorical games, not honest debate.
>
> He's simply repeating the same thing post-after-post.

Apparently I have to repeat it because you don't understand English. If you
want to call that rhetoric, that is your problem.

I explained the difference quite clearly. Toyota wants to err on the side of
safety, and the other book wants to err on the side of making sure the wheel
is flat against the hub before the lug nuts are tightened.