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From: tww1491 on 28 Dec 2009 19:38

"Mike Hunter" <Mikehunt2(a)lycos,com> wrote in message
news:4b3912aa$0$31150$ce5e7886(a)news-radius.ptd.net...
> Owners of the current-generation Toyota Prius models are filing complaints
> with the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration about alleged
> brake failures, The Detroit Bureau, an independent auto website, reports.
>
>
>
> The site says it knows of at least 33 complaints. The Prius has
> regenerative braking, which turns otherwise wasted energy and heat into
> power to recharges the battery.
>
> NHTSA Tracking Braking Loss on Prius Hybrids
> Toyota owners are unhappy about the performance of the system, calling it
> defective. Pedestrian lives at risk?
>
> by Ken Zino on Dec.24, 2009
>
>
> Drivers are unhappy about stopping distances on bumps, tracks and slippery
> surfaces.
>
> Dozens of owners of the current third generation Toyota Prius models have
> filled complaints with the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration
> about the alleged brake failures they have experienced.
>
> The Office of Defects Investigation has at least 33 complaints that we are
> aware of from Prius owners alleging a problem or safety defect, often
> about the design or performance of the braking system, which recharges the
> battery when the Prius decelerates.
>
> Some owners describe this as unintended acceleration, but a review of the
> complaints by TheDetroitBureau.com leads me to think that this is an issue
> about how the braking system is calibrated. Whether this is a safety
> related defect is ultimately up to NHTSA to decide. The safety agency is
> authorized to order manufacturers to recall and repair vehicles when ODI
> investigations indicate that they contain serious safety defects in their
> design, construction, or performance.
>
> For Toyota, it is another owner satisfaction or quality issue, at a
> minimum, coming from its most advanced technology vehicle at a time when
> Toyota is under attack for its handling of safety matters.
>
> Braking performance issues?
>
> In the case of the Prius brakes, it appears that the transition from
> regenerative braking to hydraulic braking is not transparent to drivers.
> Under certain conditions, the driver needs to press harder on the brake
> pedal to obtain the same stopping performance the regenerative system
> working in conjunction with the hydraulic brakes initially provides.
> Drivers are clearly upset by longer than expected stopping distances.
>
>
> Issues!
>
> "What I, and others have been experiencing, is certainly not "runaway
> acceleration" or anything to do with pressing the gas pedal," Robert
> Becker, an unhappy owner of a 2010 Prius, told TDB.
>
>
> "But rather the loss of braking power or braking momentum when hitting a
> pothole, manhole cover, or the like. This requires the driver to press
> down again harder on the brakes to slow or stop the car," Becker says.
>
> Becker's complaint is typical of others that ODI is tracking from owner
> communications on its Auto Safety Hotline. However, the existence of
> complaints does not mean the government will ultimately pursue the matter.
> The next step would be to open up an engineering investigation, one that
> has not been taken thus far.
>
> Here is another Prius driver filing: "There have been several incidents in
> which my car seemed to surge forward while I was in the process of braking
> and hit a bump, railroad tracks or pothole. Initially, I convinced myself
> I must have been letting up on the brake when I hit the bump, but when
> this same thing happened three days ago on slippery, icy roads, I knew
> for 100% certain I had not let up on the brake. My car surged as I was
> slowly pulling up to a stop sign and gently braking. I came very close to
> hitting the car in front of me, had to push down on the brakes very hard,
> which activated the abs."
>
> I think what is going on is a combination of design/calibration choices
> and the compounding effects, forgive the pun, of the low rolling
> resistance tires, suspension settings and perhaps vehicle weight.
>
> The Prius is arguably Toyota's strongest image vehicle, dominating the
> hybrid segment as the best seller with more than 1 million in sales to
> date, and disproving other automakers' contentions that Japanese companies
> only copied instead of innovating.
>
> A Toyota spokesperson initially told TDB that he was unaware of the issue,
> but Toyota quickly supplied the following statement: "We are aware of the
> complaints filed with NHTSA. The agency has not opened an investigation.
> We are investigating the issue based on internet traffic, customer
> comments to Toyota Customer Relations, and NHTSA complaints. It is too
> early to speculate the final conclusion(s) of our investigation and
> subsequent actions."
>
> NHTSA would only confirm that no recall or formal investigation is
> underway. The ODI complaints are a matter of public record, though.
>
>
> Fatal for Pedestrians?
>
> Nonetheless, an internal NHTSA memo says: "It appears that when you hit a
> bump, the regenerative braking (front wheels only) cuts out, and there is
> a short delay until the friction braking kicks in. This results in loss of
> braking, which is experienced as acceleration (due to sudden end of
> deceleration from braking). Net impact is still a loss of braking/
> increase in stopping distance. This could be fatal for pedestrians - it
> happens when approaching stop lights if you hit a pothole."
>
> Toyota is in the midst of huge recalls involving floor mats and
> accelerator pedals (3.8 million vehicles) and rusty Tundra frames
> (+100,000), among others; and it faces lawsuits alleging the withholding
> of evidence in safety investigations, as well as new charges of unintended
> acceleration, and stalling in some of its most popular models.
>
> Toyota's worst year for recalls, ever
>
> So far this year, Toyota has said it will recall a total of 4.8 million
> vehicles in the United States, four times more than in any previous year.
> It recalled 1.1 million vehicles in 2004.
>
> It is difficult, though, to attribute the Toyota brand sales decline in
> the U.S. - off 24% year-to-date, about the same as industry results - to
> a damaged reputation, in spite of much self-serving media and analyst
> commentary claiming such.
>
> However, the longer safety and customer satisfaction matters remain under
> media and government scrutiny, the more serious the potential
> consequences. The company announced last week the retirement of its long
> time group vice president of environmental and public affairs, which could
> be coincidental or not.
>
> The dealership that sold Becker the car recommended that a Toyota field
> technician check on his complaint. The technician, according to Becker,
> acknowledged the condition, but stopped short of characterizing it as a
> safety issue.
>
> While he initially was looking for a fix for the problem, Becker now wants
> a full refund of the purchase price of the vehicle, something the company
> is unwilling to do thus far.
>
> "It makes me question Toyota's commitment to customer service and safety,"
> Becker says.
>
> a..
>
>
> This entry was posted on Thursday, December 24th, 2009 at 10:00 am and is
> filed under Automobiles. You can follow any responses to this entry
> through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your
> own site.
>
> 5 Responses to "NHTSA Tracking Braking Loss on Prius Hybrids"
> 1.. Robert Becker says:
> December 24, 2009 at 11:14 am
> I first noticed this problem, not surprisingly, while driving in New York
> City and slowing down at a red light, approaching a pedestrian walk in
> Times Square. As I pushed down on the brake to gradually slow down, I must
> have hit one of the many potholes or bumps in the road, and to my
> surprise, instead of the car coming to a stop, it's as if the brakes
> released unexpectedly, forcing me to press down harder to stop. I would
> guess that the unexpected forward momentum caused me to stop a few feet or
> more further than I anticipated. And when you're talking about busy
> pedestrian walkways, you don't have a lot of latitude before potentially
> winding up in the pedestrian walkway itself. The first time it happened to
> me, it scared the hell out of me - and that's what many other Prius owners
> report as well. And it doesn't take much of a bump in the road to
> re-create the occurrence. Now when it happens, I get angry more than
> anything else because I know this shouldn't be happening!
>
> Fortunately, I have not had an accident, but that's due to my changing my
> driving style and anticipating when the braking issue will occur. I travel
> the same route back and forth to work each day and I have come to know
> many of the trigger points in the road that will create this issue - the
> scariest one being near a pedestrian crosswalk in New York where I have to
> come down a slight grade in the road before making a right turn - there
> are often pedestrians standing in the road itself, and of course, the road
> is bumpy there. What I have been doing to compensate for the brake issue
> is to switch from the "D" drive mode down to the lower gear "B" mode to
> slow down the car and avoid using the brakes when I don't have to - in
> fact, whenever I am in need of slowing down the car on a decline, I will
> always switch into B mode to try to avoid using the brakes for as long as
> possible.
>
> 2.. mrbruum says:
> December 24, 2009 at 9:26 pm
> Interesting. I had the same symptoms on my '96 Toyota T100 4�4 with ABS.
> I'd go over a bump or RR tracks while stopping, the brakes would release
> momentarily and I'd have to step on them harder to avoid rolling through a
> stop sign or hitting the car ahead of me.
>
> I talked to the Toyota mechanic I bought it from used and he said he
> experienced the same thing.
>
> 3.. Lucy says:
> December 24, 2009 at 10:03 pm
> I to have experienced this, there are actually a lot of these complaints
> on Priuschat. Many people have said that it is a regular occurrence with
> ABS brakes but I don't think so, ABS brakes have been around a long time
> and I've never heard anything like it. I too have learned to slow down
> before bumps, cracks, tracks and the like. Sometimes you just can't
> anticipate and the unintended acceleration happens. It really is very
> scary - it's happened to us 3 times. Twice with no car in front of us and
> once when there was a car in front- thank goodness we don't tail people. I
> hope this article brings to light the problem and I hope that Toyota takes
> this seriously. They denied the runaway accelerator problem until it
> couldn't be swept under the carpet anymore.
>
> 4.. JCC says:
> December 27, 2009 at 4:42 am
> Toyotas are no longer as reliable as they used to be with massive recalls
> and a new found mentality to hid safety concerns from the public. Refer to
> the LA Times recent article "Toyota found to keep a tight lid on potential
> safety problems"
>
> 5.. Len says:
> December 28, 2009 at 6:16 am
> People on this website please google search '2010 Prius accelerates while
> braking'. The 1st listing is titled 'Prius sudden acceleration: Much ado
> about nothing'. Click on that site and read. There are more people
> experiencing this problem. We just all need to get together and get the
> NHTSA involved.They will do the rest. As I stated in a letter on the other
> site: you are very naive to think that Toyota will do anything about this
> unless forced to do so. KEEP COMPLAINING!! to your dealers also and keep
> the documentation.This will get media attention soon if we are all
> diligent with follow through NHTSA says no recall or engineering
> investigation is underway. And the site says Toyota gave it a statement
> that reads, "We are aware of the complaints filed with NHTSA. The agency
> has not opened an investigation. We are investigating the issue based on
> Internet traffic, customer comments to Toyota Customer Relations, and
> NHTSA complaints. It is too early to speculate the final conclusion(s) of
> our investigation and subsequent actions."
>
>

Add this to the engine gel problem which Toyota denied at first.
>


From: Hachiroku ハチロク on 28 Dec 2009 17:21
On Mon, 28 Dec 2009 19:38:23 -0500, tww1491 wrote:

>>
>> 5.. Len says:
>> December 28, 2009 at 6:16 am
>> People on this website please google search '2010 Prius accelerates
>> while
>> braking'. The 1st listing is titled 'Prius sudden acceleration: Much ado
>> about nothing'. Click on that site and read. There are more people
>> experiencing this problem. We just all need to get together and get the
>> NHTSA involved.They will do the rest. As I stated in a letter on the
>> other site: you are very naive to think that Toyota will do anything
>> about this unless forced to do so. KEEP COMPLAINING!! to your dealers
>> also and keep the documentation.This will get media attention soon if we
>> are all diligent with follow through NHTSA says no recall or engineering
>> investigation is underway. And the site says Toyota gave it a statement
>> that reads, "We are aware of the complaints filed with NHTSA. The agency
>> has not opened an investigation. We are investigating the issue based on
>> Internet traffic, customer comments to Toyota Customer Relations, and
>> NHTSA complaints. It is too early to speculate the final conclusion(s)
>> of our investigation and subsequent actions."
>>
>>
>>
> Add this to the engine gel problem which Toyota denied at first.

I worked for a Toyota dealer when the 'gel' problem started.

I don't think they 'denied' it, because what they found was it was only
happening to people who would say, "What?! You have to CHANGE the oil!?!?!"

They finally broke down and repaired or replaced engines for people that
would be better served by taking the bus.



From: Mike Hunter on 29 Dec 2009 12:11
Where have you been? Even Toyota gave up on that lame excuse when the
sludge started to show up in engines properly serviced at their dealership
and they offered the extended warranty because the problem they said was the
result of a change in the head design.

Do a search the truth is out there



"Hachiroku ????" <Trueno(a)e86.GTS> wrote in message
news:pan.2009.12.28.22.21.34.27271(a)e86.GTS...
> On Mon, 28 Dec 2009 19:38:23 -0500, tww1491 wrote:
>
>>>
>>> 5.. Len says:
>>> December 28, 2009 at 6:16 am
>>> People on this website please google search '2010 Prius accelerates
>>> while
>>> braking'. The 1st listing is titled 'Prius sudden acceleration: Much ado
>>> about nothing'. Click on that site and read. There are more people
>>> experiencing this problem. We just all need to get together and get the
>>> NHTSA involved.They will do the rest. As I stated in a letter on the
>>> other site: you are very naive to think that Toyota will do anything
>>> about this unless forced to do so. KEEP COMPLAINING!! to your dealers
>>> also and keep the documentation.This will get media attention soon if we
>>> are all diligent with follow through NHTSA says no recall or engineering
>>> investigation is underway. And the site says Toyota gave it a statement
>>> that reads, "We are aware of the complaints filed with NHTSA. The agency
>>> has not opened an investigation. We are investigating the issue based on
>>> Internet traffic, customer comments to Toyota Customer Relations, and
>>> NHTSA complaints. It is too early to speculate the final conclusion(s)
>>> of our investigation and subsequent actions."
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> Add this to the engine gel problem which Toyota denied at first.
>
> I worked for a Toyota dealer when the 'gel' problem started.
>
> I don't think they 'denied' it, because what they found was it was only
> happening to people who would say, "What?! You have to CHANGE the
> oil!?!?!"
>
> They finally broke down and repaired or replaced engines for people that
> would be better served by taking the bus.
>
>
>


From: tww1491 on 29 Dec 2009 12:41

"Mike Hunter" <Mikehunt2(a)lycos,com> wrote in message
news:4b3a3787$0$31929$ce5e7886(a)news-radius.ptd.net...
> Where have you been? Even Toyota gave up on that lame excuse when the
> sludge started to show up in engines properly serviced at their dealership
> and they offered the extended warranty because the problem they said was
> the result of a change in the head design.
>
> Do a search the truth is out there
>
We had a RX 300 at the time. On my insistence (and cost) they pulled the
valve covers and found some gelling even though we had the vehicle serviced
on schedule by a Lexus dealer. I was told if we had any problems later they
would replace the engine with a "good used" engine from a junk yard. We
traded the Lexus at 30k miles for a 2003 Honda Pilot and have had trouble
free (and cheaper service costs) since.
>
>
> "Hachiroku ????" <Trueno(a)e86.GTS> wrote in message
> news:pan.2009.12.28.22.21.34.27271(a)e86.GTS...
>> On Mon, 28 Dec 2009 19:38:23 -0500, tww1491 wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>>> 5.. Len says:
>>>> December 28, 2009 at 6:16 am
>>>> People on this website please google search '2010 Prius accelerates
>>>> while
>>>> braking'. The 1st listing is titled 'Prius sudden acceleration: Much
>>>> ado
>>>> about nothing'. Click on that site and read. There are more people
>>>> experiencing this problem. We just all need to get together and get the
>>>> NHTSA involved.They will do the rest. As I stated in a letter on the
>>>> other site: you are very naive to think that Toyota will do anything
>>>> about this unless forced to do so. KEEP COMPLAINING!! to your dealers
>>>> also and keep the documentation.This will get media attention soon if
>>>> we
>>>> are all diligent with follow through NHTSA says no recall or
>>>> engineering
>>>> investigation is underway. And the site says Toyota gave it a
>>>> statement
>>>> that reads, "We are aware of the complaints filed with NHTSA. The
>>>> agency
>>>> has not opened an investigation. We are investigating the issue based
>>>> on
>>>> Internet traffic, customer comments to Toyota Customer Relations, and
>>>> NHTSA complaints. It is too early to speculate the final conclusion(s)
>>>> of our investigation and subsequent actions."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Add this to the engine gel problem which Toyota denied at first.
>>
>> I worked for a Toyota dealer when the 'gel' problem started.
>>
>> I don't think they 'denied' it, because what they found was it was only
>> happening to people who would say, "What?! You have to CHANGE the
>> oil!?!?!"
>>
>> They finally broke down and repaired or replaced engines for people that
>> would be better served by taking the bus.
>>
>>
>>
>
>


From: Mike Hunter on 29 Dec 2009 15:44
That was Toyotas trick to quiet the problem among buyers. Dealers were
authorized to CLEAN, repaid or replace any engine exhibiting "gelling" as
they refer to the sludge. Dealers are encouraged to clean the engines by
being played a hansom fee for doing so and advising the owner they must use
synthetic oil in the future.

By dealers cleaning the engine they service they can put off any further
repairs until the ten year, unlimited mileage, extended warranty expires.
It also worked in keeping the shark lawyers at bay.

The warranty authorizes the replacement engine to be a factory remanufacture
(rebuilt} engine not used, however


"tww1491" <twaugh5(a)cox.net> wrote in message
news:W7r_m.12192$mr6.8570(a)newsfe08.iad...
>
> "Mike Hunter" <Mikehunt2(a)lycos,com> wrote in message
> news:4b3a3787$0$31929$ce5e7886(a)news-radius.ptd.net...
>> Where have you been? Even Toyota gave up on that lame excuse when the
>> sludge started to show up in engines properly serviced at their
>> dealership and they offered the extended warranty because the problem
>> they said was the result of a change in the head design.
>>
>> Do a search the truth is out there
>>
> We had a RX 300 at the time. On my insistence (and cost) they pulled the
> valve covers and found some gelling even though we had the vehicle
> serviced on schedule by a Lexus dealer. I was told if we had any problems
> later they would replace the engine with a "good used" engine from a junk
> yard. We traded the Lexus at 30k miles for a 2003 Honda Pilot and have had
> trouble free (and cheaper service costs) since.
>>
>>
>> "Hachiroku ????" <Trueno(a)e86.GTS> wrote in message
>> news:pan.2009.12.28.22.21.34.27271(a)e86.GTS...
>>> On Mon, 28 Dec 2009 19:38:23 -0500, tww1491 wrote:
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 5.. Len says:
>>>>> December 28, 2009 at 6:16 am
>>>>> People on this website please google search '2010 Prius accelerates
>>>>> while
>>>>> braking'. The 1st listing is titled 'Prius sudden acceleration: Much
>>>>> ado
>>>>> about nothing'. Click on that site and read. There are more people
>>>>> experiencing this problem. We just all need to get together and get
>>>>> the
>>>>> NHTSA involved.They will do the rest. As I stated in a letter on the
>>>>> other site: you are very naive to think that Toyota will do anything
>>>>> about this unless forced to do so. KEEP COMPLAINING!! to your dealers
>>>>> also and keep the documentation.This will get media attention soon if
>>>>> we
>>>>> are all diligent with follow through NHTSA says no recall or
>>>>> engineering
>>>>> investigation is underway. And the site says Toyota gave it a
>>>>> statement
>>>>> that reads, "We are aware of the complaints filed with NHTSA. The
>>>>> agency
>>>>> has not opened an investigation. We are investigating the issue based
>>>>> on
>>>>> Internet traffic, customer comments to Toyota Customer Relations, and
>>>>> NHTSA complaints. It is too early to speculate the final conclusion(s)
>>>>> of our investigation and subsequent actions."
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Add this to the engine gel problem which Toyota denied at first.
>>>
>>> I worked for a Toyota dealer when the 'gel' problem started.
>>>
>>> I don't think they 'denied' it, because what they found was it was only
>>> happening to people who would say, "What?! You have to CHANGE the
>>> oil!?!?!"
>>>
>>> They finally broke down and repaired or replaced engines for people that
>>> would be better served by taking the bus.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>


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