Drivers In Some Toyota Crashes Hit Accelerator, Not Brakes
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From: lvw on 14 Jul 2010 20:21 I think this adds a bit of balance to the discussion. Seems there's now some info to offset a bit of the hysteria and lies: (Of course, this certainly does not mean there is no problem...) WSJ: Drivers In Some Toyota Crashes Hit Accelerator, Not Brakes By Mike Ramsey and Kate Linebaugh Of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL The U.S. Department of Transportation has analyzed dozens of data recorders from Toyota Motor Corp. (TM, 7203.TO) vehicles involved in accidents blamed on sudden acceleration and found that, at the time of the crashes, throttles were wide open and the brakes weren't engaged, people familiar with the findings said. The results suggest that some drivers who said their Toyota and Lexus vehicles surged out of control were mistakenly flooring the accelerator when they intended to jam on the brakes. But the findings don't exonerate Toyota from two known issues blamed for sudden acceleration in its vehicles: sticky accelerator pedals and floor mats that can trap accelerator pedals to the floor. The findings by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration involve a sample of reports in which a driver of a Toyota vehicle said the brakes were depressed but failed to stop the car from accelerating and ultimately crashing. The data recorders analyzed by NHTSA were selected by the agency, not Toyota, based on complaints the drivers had filed with the government. (This story and related background material will be available on The Wall Street Journal Web site, WSJ.com.) The findings are consistent with a 1989 government-sponsored study that blamed similar driver mistakes for a rash of sudden-acceleration reports involving Audi AG (NSU.XE) Audi 5000 sedans. The Toyota findings, which haven't been released by NHTSA, support Toyota's position that sudden-acceleration reports involving its vehicles weren't caused by electronic glitches in computer-controlled throttle systems, as some safety advocates and plaintiffs' attorneys have alleged. More than 100 people have sued the auto maker claiming crashes were the result of faulty electronics. NHTSA has received more than 3,000 complaints of sudden acceleration in Toyotas, including some dating to early last decade, according to a report the agency compiled in March. The incidents include 75 fatal crashes involving 93 deaths. However, NHTSA has been able to verify only one of those fatal crashes was caused by a problem with the vehicle, according to information the agency provided to the National Academy of Sciences. That accident last Aug. 28, which killed a California highway patrolman and three passengers in a Lexus, was traced to a floor mat that trapped the gas pedal in the depressed position. Toyota has recalled more than eight million cars globally to fix floor mats and sticky accelerators. A spokeswoman for NHTSA declined to confirm the results from the data recorders. She said the agency was continuing to investigate the Toyota accidents and wouldn't be prepared to comment fully on the probe until a broader study is completed in conjunction with NASA, which is expected to take months. Transportation Department officials, however, have said publicly that they have yet to find any electronic problems in Toyota cars. Daniel Smith, NHTSA's associate administrator for enforcement, told a panel of the National Academy of Sciences last month that the agency's sudden-acceleration probe had yet to find any car defects beyond those identified by the company: pedals entrapped by floor mats, and "sticky" accelerator pedals that are slow to return to idle. "In spite our investigations, we have not actually been able yet to find a defect" in electronic throttle-control systems, Smith told the scientific panel, which is looking into potential causes of sudden acceleration. "We're bound and determined that, if it exists, we're going to find it," he added. "But as yet, we haven't found it." Toyota officials haven't been briefed on NHTSA's findings, but they corroborate its own tests, said Mike Michels, chief spokesman for Toyota Motor Sales. Toyota's downloads of event data recorders have found evidence of sticky pedals and pedal entrapment as well as driver error, which is characterized by no evidence of the brakes being depressed during an impact. Some company officials say they are informally aware of the NHTSA results. But Toyota President Akio Toyoda has said the company won't blame customers for its problems as part of its public-relations response. Toyota is still trying to repair damage to its reputation caused as much by disclosures that the company hid knowledge of safety problems with its vehicles as by the reports of sudden acceleration. NHTSA levied a $16.4 million fine against Toyota earlier this year for failing to notify the agency in a timely manner about its sticky- accelerator issue. Toyota's handling of a rash of safety complaints involving high-profile models such as the hybrid Toyota Prius has prompted Congress to consider a far-reaching overhaul of U.S. auto- safety laws. Last week, Toyota showed reporters the inner workings of its labs, including how it has been testing its electronic throttle-control module. The car maker also has tested its vehicles' responses to strong electromagnetic radiation, such as the waves generated by cellphones and radio towers, which some critics have said could be causing a malfunction. The only interference engineers have encountered after bombarding cars with electromagnetic waves is static on the car radio. U.S. Reps. Bart Stupak (D., Mich.) and Henry Waxman (D., Calif.) have been critical of Toyota's efforts to track down alternative causes of unintended acceleration. They have said Toyota has been slow to react or has been evasive. Toyota has said it is doing everything in its power to respond to both Congress and customer complaints.
From: Davoud on 14 Jul 2010 23:01 lvw: > I think this adds a bit of balance to the discussion. Seems there's > now some info to offset a bit of the hysteria and lies: > > (Of course, this certainly does not mean there is no problem...) This is old news in a way. Independent psychologists (i.e., not employed by Toyota, its subsidiaries, or contractors) speculated some time ago that at least some Toyota drivers may have been pressing the accelerate when they believed they were pressing the brake. This was subconscious; they were not aware of it. There are documented instances of this phenomenon in past cases of unintended acceleration, as well as in airline pilot errors; pilots believed they were doing one thing and they were doing exactly the opposite. Some accidents resulted, some errors were caught by copilots. If this were true of Toyotas it would explain "The harder I pressed on the brake the more it accelerated" story. Again, that story wouldn't be a lie, but it would be incorrect. Then, it is speculated, mass hysteria (also subconscious) set in, and more Toyota drivers were led to do the same thing. People who dismiss this possibility tend to be those who dismiss everything in science that contradicts their preconceptions. No, it doesn't mean there's not a problem. I'm keeping an open mind because I do not know if a mechanical or computer issue is involved. But I believe that the cause of runaway acceleration needs to be discovered they only way truth can be discovered, through methodical, rational, rigorous scientific investigation and not through emotionally charged opinions and accusations. I'm not big on the floor mat thing. I would need three inches of floor mat pushed forward in a way that has never happened to me in fifty years of driving in order to jam the floor mats under the gas pedal. I tried repeatedly while parked and while driving to loosen my Toyota floor mats (06 Avalon, 06 Prius) with my feet. They remained locked on their hooks and I could not make them slide forward. Of course, if someone removed their floor mats for cleaning or another purpose and then failed to reinstall them correctly due to inattention or laziness that would be a different question. If such a person sues, they had better hope I'm not on the jury! Davoud -- I agree with almost everything that you have said and almost everything that you will say in your entire life. usenet *at* davidillig dawt cawm
From: Peter Granzeau on 15 Jul 2010 21:04
On Wed, 14 Jul 2010 23:01:57 -0400, Davoud <star(a)sky.net> wrote: >lvw: >> I think this adds a bit of balance to the discussion. Seems there's >> now some info to offset a bit of the hysteria and lies: >> >> (Of course, this certainly does not mean there is no problem...) > >This is old news in a way. Independent psychologists (i.e., not >employed by Toyota, its subsidiaries, or contractors) speculated some >time ago that at least some Toyota drivers may have been pressing the >accelerate when they believed they were pressing the brake. This was >subconscious; they were not aware of it. There are documented instances >of this phenomenon in past cases of unintended acceleration, as well as >in airline pilot errors; pilots believed they were doing one thing and >they were doing exactly the opposite. Some accidents resulted, some >errors were caught by copilots. If this were true of Toyotas it would >explain "The harder I pressed on the brake the more it accelerated" >story. Again, that story wouldn't be a lie, but it would be incorrect. >Then, it is speculated, mass hysteria (also subconscious) set in, and >more Toyota drivers were led to do the same thing. People who dismiss >this possibility tend to be those who dismiss everything in science >that contradicts their preconceptions. > >No, it doesn't mean there's not a problem. I'm keeping an open mind >because I do not know if a mechanical or computer issue is involved. >But I believe that the cause of runaway acceleration needs to be >discovered they only way truth can be discovered, through methodical, >rational, rigorous scientific investigation and not through emotionally >charged opinions and accusations. > >I'm not big on the floor mat thing. I would need three inches of floor >mat pushed forward in a way that has never happened to me in fifty >years of driving in order to jam the floor mats under the gas pedal. I >tried repeatedly while parked and while driving to loosen my Toyota >floor mats (06 Avalon, 06 Prius) with my feet. They remained locked on >their hooks and I could not make them slide forward. Of course, if >someone removed their floor mats for cleaning or another purpose and >then failed to reinstall them correctly due to inattention or laziness >that would be a different question. If such a person sues, they had >better hope I'm not on the jury! A couple of other possibilities were the use of aftermarket floormats, and the addition of rubber floormats over the existing carpet floormat. It's encouraging to realize that on nearly all the cases cited, the driver had pushed the accelerator and it stuck, either because of faulty mechanical design or because of catching on the floormat. Once caught or stuck down, I can see the problem. The way the press and Henny-Pennys play it, you'd think that Toyotas just accelerated themselves, when that doesn't seem to have been the case at all. |